Any thoughts on starting a Patreon?

Multi-platform modular music creation studio
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SolarLune
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Any thoughts on starting a Patreon?

Post by SolarLune » Sat May 19, 2018 7:57 pm

Hey, Night!

I was wondering if you had any thoughts on starting a Patreon to help fund development for SunVox? I feel like it might be pretty successful, and I feel like as long as updates keep coming out, most people would be willing to have a continuous method of donating to your work.

EDIT: I see that PayPal has a recurring monthly donation, so maybe that'll suffice for most people. Though a Patreon could make things a bit more transparent (in that everyone can see how much you're getting, and how much you need to make for, say, full-time development).

hseiken
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Re: Any thoughts on starting a Patreon?

Post by hseiken » Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:18 am

Sunvox feels 'finished' to me. I don't know what else you want. This is, to me, sort of the modern atmosphere of computer programming that bums me out so much. There's a problem with 'endless updates'. It means there's no end goal. There's no finish line, and each update has potential to introduce new problems, break compatibility with people that don't want the new version, etc.

Adobe Cloud has normalized this terrible practice along with OS distributors and it's a terrible business model especially if it comes with little to no customer support or bad support.

Just let Sunvox be finished and if the dev wishes to update it he will. As I can tell, there's not much to add if anything; the interface is nearly 100% customizable, you can build anything that's not offered out of the box, samples fill in the rest of the gaps, you're allowed to sequence songs either by pattern or linear sequencing, it has full midi support, touch screen interface, is on every platform you can think of...and you want an update?

Sorry, but no thanks. I like Sunvox the way it is, sue me. I'd rather learn to abuse and master what's there than having to relearn things or learn new things that didn't exist before. Consumerism is evil, endless updates are a form of planned obsolescence. Leave it alone. After 10+ years of development, it's at a good point to let it rest and let the rest of time handle your ability to master it.

(insert picture of kickstarter for air umbrella which is worse than regular umbrella)

/angry old man rant.
WARNINGThis angry old nerd may rant about modern computers or computer culture! It is not directed at you 99% of the time! Ignore it if it seems silly or personal!

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SolarLune
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Re: Any thoughts on starting a Patreon?

Post by SolarLune » Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:21 pm

I completely understand your point of view.

However, Night clearly is still working on it actively - we're just on the border of a new release here soon (it's 90% done in the Development Status thread), and the to-do list thread still has a ton of things that could be added. He doesn't have to add any of those things, of course.

You're right that SunVox is "finished", in that you can make complete, excellent music in it, and it's not lacking anything necessary to do that. But it could still be worked on, or not - it's up to Night. I feel like the nature of something like a music creation software is different from something like, say, a video game, where it's an experience that has a beginning and end. SunVox is a tool, and tools can, generally, be improved to do what they need to do more efficiently, simply, and easily. Especially so for tools that are relatively complex (i.e. it's pretty easy to make a hammer that's "perfect", but much more difficult to make a multi-tool or swiss army knife that's "perfect").

My own hope is that if it's ever "finished" in terms of development, Night would open-source the code so it can be maintained and improved going forward by the community.

hseiken
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Re: Any thoughts on starting a Patreon?

Post by hseiken » Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:11 am

At some point we have to figure out whether the cupholder makes the car better or not. I think for the most part, save some convenience factors here and there, Sunvox is at the stage where it's just adding cup holders. The only significant thing on the table I've seen is a karplus strong synth which is difficult to produce nicely with just the onboard legos. Aside from fixing bugs, I can't honestly say there's anything else unique that could be added. Again, my concern is more with the upgrade model which breaks compatibility. This has been the ruse of the tech industry to begin with especially using auto updates; if the output file compatibility is lost, or there's a 'spankin new feature' that an person updating has used, then everyone in that supply chain has to update. Usually to the chagrin of people that find out they have to update at the worst time. OS updates for windows break surface compatibility for instance despite the fact the underlying code hasn't changed, just windows acceptability of whether it WANTS to run that software.

I know I'm using extreme samples, but the effect is a blanket across all types of software; updates break unity, whether intentional or not and collaboration and output files are weaponized by most companies to ensure people are forced to upgrade to 'keep up with the jones' so to speak. It's a racket and so for the most part, I'd rather see things like forking and such happen which would be likely with open source that way the vanilla final version is always the gold standard of compatibility, especially since Sunvox uses no plugins, making cooperation a breeze compared to DAWs and people using VSTs.

I'm probably alone in this idea, but I remember when you bought a copy of any software, it came in a box and/or on a disk and it cost $$$ to do any post-release modifications and so developers would try to get it right the first time and do something called planning and support. Always on/broadband internet has turned into a tool of laziness, public beta testing posing as finished software and the aforementioned 'forced upgrade proliferation' where it's not the company that forces me to upgrade, it's my peers who did it without thinking about the consequences.

That's not to say there might not be something significant down the road outside of bug fixes that would warrant and justify a new version of sunvox. I mean, I wouldn't mind a little attention to sliders and having a little flexibility with how they're displayed and such, but it's such a small nitpick so as to be virtually pointless to fund and with each update and new feature, us who are grandfathered into the program don't have much to learn whereas someone coming in cold has years of features to deal with in the learning curve, as well, so there is that also.

I'm not specifically trying to dog on sunvox or people who want feature requests or anything just to be a naysayer or anything, but after watching multiple programs go from bad to good to bad, it's clear people don't know when to stop asking for 'dofers' and start learning how to really master what they already have. To use your swiss army knife metaphor, the difference asking for another blade when you have 5 that already do what you want, but the one you want is a millimeter shorter and slightly different curve of the tip and called something else...it's not that the other blades can't accomplish what the request for the new blade can do, or even do it better, it's that you're used to this specific blade...I find that a terrible approach to features...either learn the program and commit yourself to it, or use something else, like a non-swiss army knife that IS that blade you're looking for. Even a swiss army knife can have too many tools so that it's ability to fit in your hand comfortably is compromised so that you can have a full set of salad and desert forks when most people just want to have a solid utility when out in the wilderness.

I think another good comparison in the field of music too is hardware synthesizers; very rarely do you see a major change of physical hardware. If it can't do something but can come close, people learn the device and figure out what they need to do to get it done. I wish more people would think this way with software but because the computer is a 'hot medium' people would rather sacrifice everyone else's comforts to satisfy their incompetence sometimes. It's human nature so I'm not hating on anyone, but it would be nice if the culture of software in 2018 was less concerned with 'do this for me' and 'add this extra useless thing' rather than 'please fix this operational bug' and 'make this solid and never crash' which to me is far more valuable than any simple feature these days..

Again, I apologize for ranting, and I know talking about this stuff here won't fix silicon valley or people in general, but it's troubling so now and then when the chance to make my case comes up, I'll take it at the expense of sounding like the biggest douche on the block. I'm okay with that. :p
WARNINGThis angry old nerd may rant about modern computers or computer culture! It is not directed at you 99% of the time! Ignore it if it seems silly or personal!

hseiken
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Re: Any thoughts on starting a Patreon?

Post by hseiken » Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:13 am

oh and TLDR = design trumps requests and meaningless updates imo.
WARNINGThis angry old nerd may rant about modern computers or computer culture! It is not directed at you 99% of the time! Ignore it if it seems silly or personal!

mrev
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Re: Any thoughts on starting a Patreon?

Post by mrev » Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:55 pm

I would support a Patreon for NightRadio to continue working on SunVox, if that were something he was interested in.

Hseiken, SolarLune has contributed some excellent tutorials on SunVox, I think he has a good appreciation for SunVox and don't think his intention of a Patreon would be to increase cognitive workload on NightRadio, rather just to support. Btw Hseiken I just saw a screencast workflow video you posted, thank you for posting that, I look forward to watching it.

Imho I feel like the SunVox community is pretty good about being disciplined and realistic about feature requests. And NightRadio seems pretty good at striking a balance between listening to his users and keeping true to the vision he has for SunVox.

If SunVox were done today, I'd be content. There's things I'd like to see sure but I don't voice them too much cause I'm more interested in seeing where NightRadio takes it than adding to potential noise. But I'm definitely interested in seeing SunVox develop, because I'm interested in seeing how Alex's vision for it evolves.

hseiken
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Re: Any thoughts on starting a Patreon?

Post by hseiken » Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:09 am

mrev wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:55 pm
If SunVox were done today, I'd be content. There's things I'd like to see sure but I don't voice them too much cause I'm more interested in seeing where NightRadio takes it than adding to potential noise. But I'm definitely interested in seeing SunVox develop, because I'm interested in seeing how Alex's vision for it evolves.
I think overall we're on the same page, but since there's a culture of 'endless updates', I probably wrongly misunderstood the intent of the original request. As I stated before, the counter argument to a complacent culture of 'endless updates are desirable' is rarely brought up and combined with my misinterpretation...welp, angry old man rant happened :p

Maybe I should put that warning in my signature: "WILL ANGRY OLD MAN RANT RANDOMLY!" :p
WARNINGThis angry old nerd may rant about modern computers or computer culture! It is not directed at you 99% of the time! Ignore it if it seems silly or personal!

mrev
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Re: Any thoughts on starting a Patreon?

Post by mrev » Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:00 am

I know where you're coming from. There is definitely a disease out there going by the name of "if X only had these features and was designed differently I could make the music I want to make". Endlessly moving target. I think every producer gets it at some point. I think in a way SunVox has benefitted from flying under the radar a bit and having a higher barrier of entry, cause it shelters NightRadio from dealing with too many requests complaints etc that come from this mindset. Because working in SunVox takes an open mind and discipline more than other software, I feel like its users are a bit more resilient and self sufficient which is pretty cool. And, like you are saying, that's a culture worth protecting.

hseiken
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Re: Any thoughts on starting a Patreon?

Post by hseiken » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:55 am

I totally agree. For me it just comes down to asking the right person, really. A lot of stuff people ask NightRadio for can be built by another user and passed around and while I know some people can't be bothered to do this, I think it would help retain the more 'casual' user who isn't interested in building their own hotrod from scratch, they just want to jam out for a little bit. This still has a bit of learning curve and it's not obvious at first that many requests can be fulfilled by other members, but I'm at least going to try and start doing my part to share machines that fall under the 'traditional' category and try and answer requests for certain 'features' that can simply be built with the existing lego set in the software.
WARNINGThis angry old nerd may rant about modern computers or computer culture! It is not directed at you 99% of the time! Ignore it if it seems silly or personal!

mrev
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Re: Any thoughts on starting a Patreon?

Post by mrev » Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:18 am

Agree, very good points. That'd be great and appreciated. Already see a lot lately by you in the modules section. I've been working on a public library of modules, tips and tricks, reference, and a tutorial hosted in a github repo. I'll post it here in the forum when its a little further along, but my idea is to create a module library in sunsynth format sorted by type of effect/instrument and then sorted by user, that anyone can contribute to. Planning to comb over this forums examples and host there. Will post here within a month or so, hoping will be a useful resource for noth new and experienced users.

hseiken
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Re: Any thoughts on starting a Patreon?

Post by hseiken » Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:12 pm

May I should save you some time/work and send to the stuff I want to share. I had actually thought about doing that exact thing you're talking about, but if you're already doing it, no need to double up, but make the one available the most useful it can be.
WARNINGThis angry old nerd may rant about modern computers or computer culture! It is not directed at you 99% of the time! Ignore it if it seems silly or personal!

mrev
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Re: Any thoughts on starting a Patreon?

Post by mrev » Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:13 am

cool, PM'd you

dcstoica
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Re: Any thoughts on starting a Patreon?

Post by dcstoica » Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:08 am

SolarLune wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 7:57 pm
Hey, Night!

I was wondering if you had any thoughts on starting a Patreon to help fund development for SunVox? I feel like it might be pretty successful, and I feel like as long as updates keep coming out, most people would be willing to have a continuous method of donating to your work.

EDIT: I see that PayPal has a recurring monthly donation, so maybe that'll suffice for most people. Though a Patreon could make things a bit more transparent (in that everyone can see how much you're getting, and how much you need to make for, say, full-time development).
I guess you don't understand much of what a hacker is (the origininal MIT sense of the word)! Alex is doing this mostly for fun and passion. Try to do some research on the trackers history and the Scene and you might start following our state of mind!

If you live happily with extra 5*24$ per month, we wish you well and more helpers to come to you!

I could try writing my first post bilingual but Alex's English is better than my Russian since I am Romanian and living for 25 years (half of my life) in some warmplace.ca! :-)))

Instead of patronizing you might listen to the last #1: ;-)

https://soundcloud.com/gamejam-caleb/01 ... -june-2018

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SolarLune
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Re: Any thoughts on starting a Patreon?

Post by SolarLune » Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:25 am

I donate to NightRadio regularly to keep making SunVox better. I just wanted to know if Night had interest in doing it professionally / with the help of Patreon, since I know it's a higher-profile option for crowdsourcing public development. SunVox is a powerful, wide-reaching, simple, and free DAW that hits enough points that I feel like a Patreon for "the free powerful open-source DAW" might be very well received by the electronic music community as a whole.

It's all fun and passion, sure, but it's work, too. I think Night has put in way more than enough work to merit an appreciable pay coming in for consistent development.

In any case, if Night didn't want any money for SunVox's development, there wouldn't be a way to donate to him.

hseiken
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Re: Any thoughts on starting a Patreon?

Post by hseiken » Wed Aug 01, 2018 12:44 pm

I'm just going to say not everything is 'made better' by money and he already sells multiple softs which I'm sure keeps him motivated enough to keep dealing with us talking about him in his own forums. :3 Also, speaking strictly from a money perspective, Patreon would just be another 3rd party taking a cut of potential money he would make; Google Play gets a cut, Apple gets a cut and Paypal gets a cut...adding Patreon to the list would further divvy up the money coming his way to organizations that don't contribute to his popularity nor success. Most 'platforms' these days exist solely to skim off the works of others.
WARNINGThis angry old nerd may rant about modern computers or computer culture! It is not directed at you 99% of the time! Ignore it if it seems silly or personal!

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